You know, before we started this Bible Study Template format, and discussing the things of the Old Guys, I would have probably declared myself more aligned with Calvin than any other. However, it seems like every study, I find flaws in this thinking, but then Becca argues with me a little bit, and I come back toward him. I never know where I will end up until we discuss it completely...so make sure you discuss it!
This one is no exception. He says that John 15:2 is often misinterpreted to mean that a believer is separated from the vine of Jesus Christ.
“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” (John 15:2 KJV)
Calvin says NO WAY! A believer will never be removed from Christ once He is part of the vine!
He says...
In other words, Christ does not remove believers, but dead works. If a person is removed from his vine, then it is a dead work of man...that person never belonged to the vine of Jesus Christ in the first place.
Calvin says...
According to Calvin, rightfully so, unless God is moving the believer, righteous works will not be done! Everybody say Amen to that...that belief is not a problem.
But here's the tricky part...Calvin thinks that if we neglect doing the things we are supposed to be doing for God, that those opportunities get lopped off, but the believer remains part of the vine.
Sudden removal of a member from a fellowship no doubt in many people's minds that God does indeed lop off believers who refuse to do His Will. As much as I like for Calvin to be right, and as much as I like to think that we cannot lose the close embrace of the LORD God through Jesus Christ, the examples during this lesson period argue differently. we're not talking about salvation...that's the business between the fallen believer and the Lord.
We're talking about the removal of a branch...is it a dead work as Calvin suggests, or a believer who has walked away from Christ? If Calvin is to be believed, then the loss of a fellowshipping member would be as a result of a "dead work" of us. Calvin's belief suggests that the place where the believer received the things of God failed her, and she withered away.
The way I think right now, the fallen believer fails himself. They are given many wonderful, grace-filled opportunities, but in the end, a fallen member choses the world over Christ.
If one of our other fellowshipping members starts becoming unfruitful, more concerned with the things of the world rather than the things of Christ, self-focused rather than group-caring, or weak in spirit, is there something we should be doing? Is there anyway of preventing the loss of another fellowshipping Christian by group action? Does God prune that branch off after the person leaves Him or before the person chooses? How much warning does a person get before his branch is pruned away? What are some of the spiritual symptoms that a unfruitful believer exhibits before the branch gets lopped off? If another of our beloved classmates suffers these same symptoms, what can we do to lift them back to the vine, and start growing once again?
Important questions that we need answers to. As always class, the Holy Spirit has put real life examples in our midst so we can sort through and learn this stuff deeply.
David "Bucker" Becker
This one is no exception. He says that John 15:2 is often misinterpreted to mean that a believer is separated from the vine of Jesus Christ.
“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.” (John 15:2 KJV)
Calvin says NO WAY! A believer will never be removed from Christ once He is part of the vine!
He says...
"As some men corrupt the grace of God, others suppress it maliciously, and others choke it by carelessness, Christ intends by these words to awaken anxious inquiry, by declaring that all the branches which shall be unfruitful be cut off from the vine. But, here comes a question, Can any one who is ingrafted into Christ be without fruit? I answer, many are supposed to be in the vine, according to the opinion of men, who actually have no root in the vine.
In other words, Christ does not remove believers, but dead works. If a person is removed from his vine, then it is a dead work of man...that person never belonged to the vine of Jesus Christ in the first place.
Calvin says...
"And every branch that beareth fruit he pruneth." By these words, he shows that believers need incessant culture, that produce nothing good, unless God continually apply his hand; for it will not be enough to have been once made partakers of adoption, if God do not continue the work of grace in us.
According to Calvin, rightfully so, unless God is moving the believer, righteous works will not be done! Everybody say Amen to that...that belief is not a problem.
But here's the tricky part...Calvin thinks that if we neglect doing the things we are supposed to be doing for God, that those opportunities get lopped off, but the believer remains part of the vine.
Sudden removal of a member from a fellowship no doubt in many people's minds that God does indeed lop off believers who refuse to do His Will. As much as I like for Calvin to be right, and as much as I like to think that we cannot lose the close embrace of the LORD God through Jesus Christ, the examples during this lesson period argue differently. we're not talking about salvation...that's the business between the fallen believer and the Lord.
We're talking about the removal of a branch...is it a dead work as Calvin suggests, or a believer who has walked away from Christ? If Calvin is to be believed, then the loss of a fellowshipping member would be as a result of a "dead work" of us. Calvin's belief suggests that the place where the believer received the things of God failed her, and she withered away.
The way I think right now, the fallen believer fails himself. They are given many wonderful, grace-filled opportunities, but in the end, a fallen member choses the world over Christ.
If one of our other fellowshipping members starts becoming unfruitful, more concerned with the things of the world rather than the things of Christ, self-focused rather than group-caring, or weak in spirit, is there something we should be doing? Is there anyway of preventing the loss of another fellowshipping Christian by group action? Does God prune that branch off after the person leaves Him or before the person chooses? How much warning does a person get before his branch is pruned away? What are some of the spiritual symptoms that a unfruitful believer exhibits before the branch gets lopped off? If another of our beloved classmates suffers these same symptoms, what can we do to lift them back to the vine, and start growing once again?
Important questions that we need answers to. As always class, the Holy Spirit has put real life examples in our midst so we can sort through and learn this stuff deeply.
David "Bucker" Becker
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